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Janosch
Newbie
Newbie



Joined: Nov 04, 2011
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:14 pm Reply with quote

Greetings, everyone. I play Il-2 '46 every now and then. I think that the P-39 Q-10 is a cool looking plane, but I usually prefer faster planes.

The most important component of every online community is the member. While the medium, be it facebook or a gaming lounge program, and all other hard-wired content set the general tone, I believe that the members and their various interactions between each other are what ultimately define a given community.

While we are more or less unified by our passion for online virtual flying, we bring different things to the table. In the case of actual gameplay, this translates into different tactics, skill levels and plane preferences, for example. Server admins and/or game hosts ensure that no wrongdoing takes place in the game.

Then there is the Hyperlobby lounge, the place for exchanging ideas (et cetera) between flights, so to speak - and so much more. Here, rules, guidelines and eventually administrators set the limits for what is acceptable behaviour. Take note that equally important factor is the group pressure - people are more likely to respond negatively to members who are confrontational all the time - or not respond at all. This applies to gameplay as well.

Let me go back to the table analogy for a moment. Different people have different tastes, and thus bring different foods to the table, inviting others to taste them and give their honest opinions. Of course, all this is entirely voluntary. People may even choose to ignore a particular chef, if the food is too spicy. On the wall there's a sign: "Do not bring poison to the table." This is part of the Rules, sometimes pronounced "Terms of Service."

Recent events in the hyperlobby lounge have led me to the conclusion that it's time to clarify what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't, on part of regular members and the moderators. I have read and understood (from where I stand) the Terms and Conditions and done my best to follow them. Even so, I have gotten at least one threat and one kick from the lounge. I asked for clarification, but I received nothing but objections and opinions, delivered in various levels of good taste.

What prompted these events was that I posted YouTube links to hyperlobby. I have taken extra care to post only links to content that is suitable for everyone. The way I see it, posting such links is not in violation of the TOS. I have seen people post movie trailers, country music and news items to name a few examples.

I will give some examples of the links if requested. They were mostly music or fan videos with a strong Japanese and cross-cultural vibes to them... making them and me an easy target for anti-Japanese bias which sadly seems to be cool and hip in some corners of the internet.

I'll only admit that some of the videos were so cute and/or heartwarming that on viewing they might cause elevated blood sugar levels to sensitive people[1]. Even so, they are nothing which virtual pilots couldn't handle, I believe, with the long learning curves of Il-2 and everything.

Now comes the important part: As a hyperlobby user, I have the freedom to not open the links, ignore them on a mental level or even ignore the user altogether. If I choose to open a link, again I have the freedom to close the new tab if it offends me for some reason. Of course I trust that others post only work safe links like I do.

Being an administrator is about moral integrity, honesty and consistency. Actions should not be taken on a whim and without sufficient explanations, and personal tastes should not influence the actions of a good moderator. This is exactly what I feel that has happened.

Hyperlobby is not an isolated pocket, cut off from the rest of the online world. I'll leave it as an excercise for the reader to figure out why, and why that is important. One key element is the freedom of speech and expression, a value that I hold very dear. And yes, I enjoy playing Il-2 online. All this has contributed to my decision to write this post.

At this point, all I can do is to write this post and invite a reply or even discussion. But I have some modest suggestions. Please add an addendum to the TOS that clearly, without any room for interpretation explains what can be said/posted in hyperlobby lounge. This will only make it easier for the mods to justify their actions in the future.

Personally, though, I would prefer that people are permitted to post any links, as long as they are not in clear violation of the TOS. And perhaps encourage people to be more tolerant?

[1]Hey, that's humour. Without it, we are all lost, et vir sapiens non abhorrebit eam.
 
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BH_woodstock
Hyper Staff



Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 612

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:10 am Reply with quote

Many people post youtube links in the lobby of many different cultures,influences such as music and sometimes even funny links for good humor and other things as well.We all understand that different cultures like and do not like a lot of things.
Its ok that you like anime or simular stuff.
You post anime constantly thats all i or anyone else has ever seen you post.I ToS'd you last week for it because you mentioned in chat to a long time lobby user> here is that link you wanted. And i got a pm from that member(not going to say who)that he never requested it from you and didnt know why you would think he did.It can be embarrassing for anyone in open chat.I would have been myself if it was posted in open chat for me.Most pilots here are grown men or woman and are not into that sort of thing.That is the ONLY reason why you were asked to stop the cartoon anime post's.My reason for not liking it? Is because every post you have done with this stuff. We have NO CLUE what it means, what is being said or even why it is posted in the 1st place.It has no meaning.Maybe if we understood what your reason for posting it was but most dont.Yes it is cute but thats about it.And yes i agree 100% that humor is good,it is needed and wanted.But..It needs to be understood.Although posting your cartoon anime youtube links is not a clear violation of Terms of Service it is a nuisance when we get complaints about it.And that would be the reason why you were kicked.
We do enjoy having you here in "hyperlobby".You ARE a member of this community.Your kick will only last 24 hours at this time.And we will welcome you back when you return.
But please...no more anime because we do not understand it.
It has no meaning to us old folks and gives us a headache.
Maybe throw in a few airplane or music links would be nice.Keep in mind this has NOTHING to do with personal taste or being judgmental. We just have NO CLUE why it is being posted in a lobby with a bunch of grown men.That being said..I do like cartoons, always have.Even the new stuff on cartoon network.I watch "Family Guy" almost everynight.(giggity,giggity)can you believe it??

I liked your post here btw.took some time and well thought.
When you get back into lobby tomorrow send me a pm and tell me your age. Im curious about that and might explain a lot.

~S~
 
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Eries
Postman
Postman



Joined: Jan 30, 2006
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:13 am Reply with quote

BH_woodstock wrote:
Although posting your cartoon anime youtube links is not a clear violation of Terms of Service it is a nuisance when we get complaints about it.But please...no more anime because we do not understand it......................................................
It has no meaning to us old folks and gives us a headache...........................................................
Maybe throw in a few airplane or music links would be nice.Keep in mind this has NOTHING to do with personal taste or being judgmental.
~S~


This reminds me of the end of CFS , and its lobby , and its moderators.

I think these quotes reveal the meat of it.
Woodstock, the lobby isnt your personal living room. There is a TOS. If there isn't a violation , then well....
I'm sorry your an old folk. Maybe your too old to be a moderator if you are confounded by animation , really. Because you don't understand it? The TOS says if Woodstock doesn't understand it , it's a violation? Just some humor to lighten what apppers to be a real fundamental breakdown. The basis of conflict is that people don't understand each other. Someone rejects what they dont understand ? The world is flat , lmao.
And of course, it has everything to do with taste and being judgemental...Have you come out on the wrong end ?
I generally will never comment on an admins post to someone who he may have sanctioned , unless I was directly involved. But this case is a huge red flag as the admin is leaping directly on the slippery slope , as we've seen happen at our old lobbies. It always ends with a complete lack of credibility for the admin , and a boat load of work for the remaining admin team once the admin is removed to rebuild thier image if they had in any way enabled the rouge admin.
I've seen the anime posts , I've looked at them and I have no issue.
The world is round .


eries
 
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BH_woodstock
Hyper Staff



Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 612

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:31 pm Reply with quote

seems i did not get my point across. He was kicked due to complaints about him sending anime to people who did NOT request it.There were a few complaints about it in fact.I was just trying to be nice about it.Also you seem to think that "I" was the one that kicked him.I was not in the lobby when this happened.You should get your facts straight before you start making accusation's at other people and lobby admins.You speak of credibilty? maybe you should look in the mirror and get your facts 1st dont you think?

I just looked up your profile Erie.Seems you have a lot of issues with people here in the lobby.Just wanted to point that out.Seems "Your" credibility isnt very good at all.And that you like to cause problems.ALL anyone has to do to get the "Meat" of it as you say..is click on your profile and there ya go....
 
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Janosch
Newbie
Newbie



Joined: Nov 04, 2011
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:26 pm Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply.

BH_woodstock wrote:

You post anime constantly thats all i or anyone else has ever seen you post.


Of all the youtube links that I have posted, Japanese stuff are majority of them. I wouldn't use the term anime, though, because by a common definition it refers to Japanese animated cartoons. A traditional Finnish song, sung by Japanese vocaloid software mascot is not anime. Nitpicking, maybe, but it's worth pointing out that there's more to Japan than anime.

Quote:
I ToS'd you last week for it because you mentioned in chat to a long time lobby user> here is that link you wanted. And i got a pm from that member(not going to say who)that he never requested it from you and didnt know why you would think he did.


I made a joke about the content of the video while ingame, promising to post the link, and the member or members said something like "I can hardly wait." and "I was going to write that." I did indeed suspect that both were being sarcastic about it, but I thought it wouldn't do any harm to post the link anyway. Which brings us to something I find very important:

Quote:
It can be embarrassing for anyone in open chat.


Interesting point, well made. I'll try not to really embarass anyone. Can't be too hard, now that you brought it up. Good thing you did!

Quote:
Although posting your cartoon anime youtube links is not a clear violation of Terms of Service it is a nuisance when we get complaints about it.And that would be the reason why you were kicked.


I have to separately thank you for clarifying that. Now, this is (kind of) unrelated, but how do moderators cope with complaints that are false or perhaps in the gray area?

Quote:
But please...no more anime because we do not understand it.
It has no meaning to us old folks and gives us a headache.


Because the line may be a bit unclear sometimes, I promise not to post any youtube or other links for the next nine (9) days, during which I hope this discussion bears fruit which we all can enjoy. For the lounge, it's a good timeout period imho. After the nine days, I don't know what will happen or what has happened. I don't want to change myself too much for the sake of other people, but I won't expect others to change themselves too much for my sake, even if I wished they did. I'll probably check my ideals and values and see if I can swallow my pride a bit to fully comply with your request.

p.s.
ZUN, the Japanese man who is partially responsible of the Touhou craze is about 30 years old. In the next year, he'll be 31, then 32, then 99... finding a meaning in something is not dependant on a person's biological age. I may be 5 or 600 years old, but I can always enjoy Frank Sinatra, for example.
p.p.s.
I know all about headaches; I once consumed a spoonful of fairy cleaner - excellent for dishes but... anyway, the best way to deal with common headaches is to merely avoid the activity which causes them.
 
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BH_woodstock
Hyper Staff



Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 612

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:03 pm Reply with quote

Ok, here it is plain and simple. After talking to the Admin that "Did" kick you.It was because of you spamming the lobby with with your post's and ignoring the request of an admin to stop spamming the lobby with these links in question.Also sending a pm to a Admin and saying you were not scared of the ToS threats.That is it in a nutshell.You got a 24 hour kick, its done with,Your back in the lobby. Get over it.
 
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KG26_Alpha
Hyper Staff



Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 566
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:56 pm Reply with quote

Hi Janosch

Glad to see you flying again.

Your certainly a character in HL and in CooP's Wink

Have fun

_________________
Bombs Away
Hyperlobby's dedicated bomber server.

www.ikg26.proboards.com

 
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troll2k
Hyper Postman
Hyper Postman



Joined: Feb 07, 2003
Posts: 214
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:25 am Reply with quote

Someone getting a link they did not request can be just a mistake.

I have on more than one occasion sent a page to the wrong person by mistake.

It usually occurs when just as I click on a name in the lobby list someone joins or quits and the lists shifts.(up or down.usually by one)I do not notice the wrong person has been selected and send my page.

However repeated pages to the wrong person I can not explain.
 
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Eries
Postman
Postman



Joined: Jan 30, 2006
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:07 pm Reply with quote

BH_woodstock wrote:
seems i did not get my point across. He was kicked due to complaints about him sending anime to people who did NOT request it.There were a few complaints about it in fact.I was just trying to be nice about it.Also you seem to think that "I" was the one that kicked him.I was not in the lobby when this happened.You should get your facts straight before you start making accusation's at other people and lobby admins.You speak of credibilty? maybe you should look in the mirror and get your facts 1st dont you think?

I just looked up your profile Erie.Seems you have a lot of issues with people here in the lobby.Just wanted to point that out.Seems "Your" credibility isnt very good at all.And that you like to cause problems.ALL anyone has to do to get the "Meat" of it as you say..is click on your profile and there ya go....


The onus is on the admins to have credibility. This post reveals that you may be old , but lack the patience and maturity to handle admin responsibilities. Your attitude and approach fails to live up to the standards set by proper or previous admins. Your post is reactionary and childlike at best.
One single unqualified admin can unfortunately do alot of damage. It would be appropriate to recall you for further admin training.
We'll be keeping a close eye on you and your actions as an admin in the future.

Eries.
 
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BH_woodstock
Hyper Staff



Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 612

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:34 pm Reply with quote

I do not need to explain myself to you.

you also need to re read this thread.Although i agree 100% with the admin that did kick this person, You are barking up the wrong tree.


Last edited by BH_woodstock on Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total 
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Doghouse
Hyper Staff



Joined: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 506
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:16 pm Reply with quote

Those youtube vids are in japanese and I (and most everyone else) haven't the foggiest idea what they are. That in itself makes them annoying. The admins have no way to check if they are clean heart warming videos, or porn. The simple solution to all this is for Janosch to send those links in PMs to those who are actually interested and stop spamming the lobby with them.
 
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LeLv76_Erkki
Hyper Staff



Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Posts: 365
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:25 pm Reply with quote

Now we must remember that HL chat is just a single room with only a dozen lines for all up to multi hundred users. It can get bogged and cluttered very easily by just a couple of users who spam nonsense, urls, numbers, one-word lines etc.

From the Terms of Service:

Quote:
7. Interferes with the use of the HyperLobby Online System by others.


This part includes spam. By Wikipedia's definition:

Quote:
Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately.



To me, this includes the usual count-downs and random numbers, Orbit-esque monologues, urls (including youtube) etc. especially when not part of a conversation.

Combined with the bragging on the superiority of some culture or a form of art over an other on a daily basis apparently to start argues(these also applied to user Xilon_X who got permanently banned for spamming mostly Italian-language nationalistic propaganda and conspiracy theory videos) isnt making it easier. The point of trying to start a conversation went old long ago.

I personally do not have anything against Janosch's likes and not likes. I may not enjoy watching big eyed asexual anime characters dancing to a disco music but its no reason for me to boot anyone. However, the behavior described above is, especially after the reply which Janosch gave to an admin after multiple warnings in chat(how nicely put they were I dont know).

Quote:
Being an administrator is about moral integrity, honesty and consistency. Actions should not be taken on a whim and without sufficient explanations, and personal tastes should not influence the actions of a good moderator. This is exactly what I feel that has happened.


Indeed! And this is exactly why you were warned multiple times and not just booted away at first opportunity after the first mildest rule break. Same rules apply to everyone, admins and anime-ists included.


Eries:
Quote:
The onus is on the admins to have credibility. This post reveals that you may be old , but lack the patience and maturity to handle admin responsibilities. Your attitude and approach fails to live up to the standards set by proper or previous admins. Your post is reactionary and childlike at best.
One single unqualified admin can unfortunately do alot of damage. It would be appropriate to recall you for further admin training.
We'll be keeping a close eye on you and your actions as an admin in the future.

Eries.


The only creditability the admins will need is their requesting, acceptance and appointment to their position by Jiri Fojtasek. If you get warned and/or booted from HL by an admin, it is more than likely that Jiri would have done exactly the same to you, and as far as I know, no admins have been relieved from their "jobs" yet. I think its time for you to take a look at the mirror.
 
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Jiri-Fojtasek
Site Admin
Site Admin



Joined: Feb 02, 2003
Posts: 1729
Location: Slovakia

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:56 pm Reply with quote

Problem has been explained and solved.

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